[19:31] <+KeenanDunham> Thank you, I’m Keenan Dunham and I created and released on Kickstarter a pen and paper RPG called Necroropia
[19:31] <+DLB_Chuck> link?
[19:31] <+KeenanDunham> Necrotopia is an RPG of colliding apocalypses
[19:32] <+KeenanDunham> (Link: https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/78190667/necrotopia-handbook-to-the-apocalypse)https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/78190667/necrotopia-handbook-to-the-apocalypse
[19:32] <+KeenanDunham> We have book 1 ready to ship, and book 2 in editing, with 3 more planned and a hardback omnibus
[19:33] <+KeenanDunham> The first is an Apocalypse on Earth, the second is Ragnarok set in Asgard, and the others contain more apocalyptic events, places, and characters to use.
[19:33] <+KeenanDunham> Done, ready for questions
[19:34] <~Dan> Thanks, KeenanDunham! The floor is open to questions!
[19:34] <+DLB_Chuck> How long is the first book? What size?
[19:34] <+KeenanDunham> 20 full-color pages, front and back in a paperback 8.5 by 11 booklet
[19:35] <~Dan> 20 pages? Wow… How do you fit a whole RPG into that space?
[19:35] <+DLB_Chuck> Are the other books going to be that same size?
[19:36] <+KeenanDunham> Yes the paperback versions are anticipated to be 20 pages each with art, story, characters and locations.
[19:36] <+KeenanDunham> It is bare bones supposed to be as simple an RPG and easy to pick up as I could make it
[19:37] <+DLB_Chuck> So the $40 pledge gets you 40 pages of printed game material?
[19:37] <+KeenanDunham> You can create characters in five minutes and play in an hour. It is easy for players new to pen and paper RPGs to pick up and play. I wanted to make it accessible to a wide audience.
[19:39] <+KeenanDunham> Yes, some one requested to be able get a reward for shipping both book 1 and 2 physical copies, and I created that reward level with a limited number available.
[19:39] <~Dan> Can you say a bit more about what the core game is about?
[19:39] <+KeenanDunham> I am printing them myself on glossy paper.
[19:40] <+DLB_Chuck> How are they bound?
[19:40] <+KeenanDunham> The game is about your characters encountering apocalyptic events all at once in the modern day, coming together and trying to survive together.
[19:41] <+KeenanDunham> The booklet is double length pages folded and center stapled.
[19:41] <+KeenanDunham> Thick glossy paper, more pounds than normal print paper
[19:41] <+KeenanDunham> They are nice
[19:41] <~Dan> What are these apocalyptic events?
[19:41] <+DLB_Chuck> The KS says they are “paperback”. What you’re describing is called “saddle stitched”
[19:42] <+KeenanDunham> So in character creation it is very simple and you only have to create a few parts of your character, but one is motivation, and the players are instructed not to write that down and keep it secret and role-play that part.
[19:43] <+KeenanDunham> It is a form of paperback, and falls under that option for describing it to anyone I would think? I’m new to this.
[19:43] <+KeenanDunham> This is my first RPG or production of a game
[19:45] <+KeenanDunham> Obviously a finished retail product with a publisher would be different
[19:45] <~Dan> Well, we have a number of experienced game authors who hang out here and who would be glad to give you advice, I’m sure.
[19:45] <+KeenanDunham> Cool
[19:45] <~Dan> DLB_Chuck and WCRobert among them.
[19:46] <+KeenanDunham> I’m learning a lot as I go. I actually created this RPG for friends to play in 2009
[19:46] <+KeenanDunham> Has always been a lot of fun to play.
[19:46] <~Dan> What sort of apocalypse does the game cover?
[19:47] <+KeenanDunham> I’ve played other RPGs such as DnD and Pathfinder, and I found I loathed the long character creation times and long amounts of skill checks in sessions.
[19:47] <+KeenanDunham> So this game is easy to master and highly customizable
[19:47] <+KeenanDunham> It covers Satan invading Earth, Ragnarok, and more and more with each book.
[19:48] <+DLB_Chuck> How do the mechanics compare to “lite” games like PbtA or D6xD6?
[19:48] <+KeenanDunham> They are linked together by the discovery of portal technology, that brings the players to a larger and larger field of battle.
[19:49] <+KeenanDunham> In character creation you create three of your owns special moves for your character, with 1d6 strength.
[19:49] <+KeenanDunham> In combat you roll a d6 for hit chance against monsters.
[19:50] <+KeenanDunham> Then you roll your damage d6 if you hit.
[19:50] <+KeenanDunham> With each level you can add one point to a move modifier, one turn to a buff or stun or create a new base move.
[19:51] <+DLB_Chuck> Can you give examples of special moves?
[19:51] <+KeenanDunham> You can also elect to add 3 health or one armor.
[19:51] <+KeenanDunham> Ok
[19:51] <+KeenanDunham> Let’s say my friend created an illusionist who was a magician in Las Vegas during the apocalypse.
[19:52] <+KeenanDunham> You also get one 1d6 weapon of your choice
[19:52] <+KeenanDunham> He created a mirror dirk that did 1d6
[19:52] <+KeenanDunham> A one turn illusion move that could change the visibility of something or some one
[19:53] <+KeenanDunham> A health buff of 5 health for the party for 2 turns
[19:53] <+KeenanDunham> And a poison smoke from his gloves that did 1-3 for 2 turns
[19:53] <+KeenanDunham> The Game Maestro guides the players on the power level of those start moves.
[19:54] <+KeenanDunham> They should limit damage to 1-6 and buffs and stuns to one or two turns.
[19:54] <+KeenanDunham> It is simple and it works
[19:55] <~Dan> What other aspects make up a character? And do you have a character sheet that we can see?
[19:55] <+KeenanDunham> Yes every reward comes with a character sheet
[19:56] <+KeenanDunham> I don’t have it online right now
[19:56] <+KeenanDunham> I’ll post it on kickstarter soon
[19:56] <+KeenanDunham> But in character creation yu get 25 health plus one d6 roll
[19:56] <+KeenanDunham> a name and background for your character
[19:56] <+DLB_Chuck> Book 1 is “ready”. What’s the status on Book 2?
[19:57] <+KeenanDunham> 2 starting armor
[19:57] <~Dan> (Howdy, MonkofLords)
[19:57] <+KeenanDunham> It is in editing the text and I’m waiting on 2 more artworks from commissioned artists
[19:57] <+KeenanDunham> Hello
[19:57] <+DLB_Chuck> What are monster stats like?
[19:58] <+KeenanDunham> Your three special moves, one d6 weapon of choice
[19:58] <+KeenanDunham> and your motive you create but keep secret from the Game Maestro and can role-play it, and can change the motive at any time
[19:59] <+KeenanDunham> Monsters have armor, health, and moves
[19:59] <+DLB_Chuck> If you keep it secret and you can change it at any time, do you really need a motive?
[19:59] <~Dan> (Howdy, luc)
[19:59] <+KeenanDunham> For new players I think it encourages them to be thinking about their character’s motivations for actions.
[20:00] <+KeenanDunham> It’s just an easy way to explain and illicit role-playing
[20:00] <+DLB_Chuck> Most games people have the motive to kill stuff, get treasure, level up. How is this different?
[20:00] <+DLB_Chuck> Is it fleshed out like a background?
[20:00] <+KeenanDunham> It explains you can play a evil character, greed driven, protector, anything
[20:01] <+KeenanDunham> There are examples in book 1
[20:01] <+KeenanDunham> You can play your entire party fighting for Satan
[20:01] <+KeenanDunham> trying to end the world if you wanted lol
[20:02] <~Dan> Do characters have any abilities outside of combat?
[20:02] <+KeenanDunham> I just create many places and bosses for players to go wild with
[20:02] <+DLB_Chuck> The video shows a few of what look like “pages” with text and a graphic. Is that what the book looks like?
[20:02] <+KeenanDunham> Yes those are from book one
[20:02] <+KeenanDunham> outside of combat, yes
[20:02] <~Dan> (wb, El_Squido)
[20:03] <+El_Squido> (*kicks connection*)
[20:03] <~Dan> What are they?
[20:03] <+KeenanDunham> you could use a move to be an expert in computer, lockpicking, anything
[20:03] <~Dan> Ah, I see.
[20:03] <+KeenanDunham> But you would have to use a move
[20:03] <+KeenanDunham> of your 3 starting moves
[20:03] <+KeenanDunham> any else reasonable the GM would allow you to naturally do
[20:04] <+KeenanDunham> there are no skill checks
[20:04] <+DLB_Chuck> So moves are actions like an attack or using what other games would call a skill?
[20:04] <+KeenanDunham> yes, they could be magic, using an instrument, anything
[20:05] <+KeenanDunham> Is there anything I missed in those questions?
[20:06] <+DLB_Chuck> i think i get it. you use the term “move” to keep it simple — like the way you’d do something in a board game?
[20:06] <+KeenanDunham> Can I ask the viewers what they think of the system of combat and character creation?
[20:06] <+KeenanDunham> Yes for sure
[20:06] <~Dan> Well, I’m not sure I follow it yet, to be honest.
[20:07] <+KeenanDunham> Which aspect?
[20:07] <~Dan> Can we go with a simple example? How would you roll to leap over a gap of some sort?
[20:07] <+DLB_Chuck> it’s very simplistic — which is what I think you’re after — but maybe a little too much for most role-players though. If i understand it correctly.
[20:07] <+KeenanDunham> There are no skill checks, you would have had to make a move that did that to jump 20 feet like a giant leap.
[20:08] <+KeenanDunham> So for a gap jump the GM will tell you if you could make it or not.
[20:08] <+KeenanDunham> Not an advanced set of players could add skill checks to their game
[20:08] <+DLB_Chuck> when do you roll the die?
[20:08] <+KeenanDunham> However they like
[20:09] <~Dan> Hmm.
[20:09] <+KeenanDunham> Only for hit and damage in combat.
[20:09] <+KeenanDunham> And if a move is a stun
[20:09] <+KeenanDunham> it also rolls to hit
[20:09] <~Dan> See, the problem I see there is that you’re not allowing for characters to do something that they should be able to attempt naturally.
[20:09] <+KeenanDunham> which is just an aim check for that move
[20:09] <+DLB_Chuck> how about your illusionist example? To make something “invisible” would they just automatically succeed?
[20:09] <+KeenanDunham> The skill checks can be roleplayed
[20:09] <~Dan> (Howdy, KJ)
[20:10] <+KeenanDunham> I say I attempt to jump after running at a gap
[20:10] <+KeenanDunham> and the GM says based on their own judgement you make in barely holding onto the edge
[20:10] <+DLB_Chuck> so it’s arbitrary?
[20:10] <+KeenanDunham> It saves a lot of time in games
[20:11] <+KeenanDunham> It just doesn’t focus on skill checks within the game
[20:11] <+KeenanDunham> It’s more combat and role-playing
[20:11] <+KeenanDunham> I don’t have anything about puzzles yet, but I may add that to a later book
[20:12] <+KeenanDunham> If I did skill checks it would be in a way unique to Necrotopia and I would add that to a later book
[20:12] <+KeenanDunham> But you can have a lot of fun in this game without them
[20:12] <+KeenanDunham> I will probably add a skill check option later
[20:14] <~Dan> I would strongly suggest adding one sooner rather than later.
[20:14] <+DLB_Chuck> Like before book 1 goes out
[20:15] <+DLB_Chuck> It’s just an expectation that the games should have an element of chance beyond combat. Otherwise everything is the GM telling a story
[20:15] <+KeenanDunham> That’s a good idea, but I want to also make this the easiest RPG to play opening it up to new players. Also it’s like a pick up game at parties.
[20:15] <~Dan> You’re trying to combine freeform roleplaying with ultralite roleplaying gaming. I’m not sure that’s a good fit.
[20:15] <+KeenanDunham> I want parents and kids to be able to play this together
[20:16] <+DLB_Chuck> I think they could with a simple dice mechanic
[20:16] <+KeenanDunham> You know how long it takes to create characters when you have a dozen skills to roll and define at the beginning of a campaign
[20:16] <+KeenanDunham> I love DnD and those, but it limits the audience
[20:16] <+DLB_Chuck> You don’t have to roll skills
[20:16] <+KeenanDunham> Yes I will definitely try to make a simple skill check
[20:17] <+KeenanDunham> stats
[20:17] <+WCRobert> I am not sure it is a “bad” fit either though. My concern is that if it is for new and old gamers alike then you need LOTS of examples and a bit of hand holding. Experienced folk can skip over that and fill in blanks, but you don’t want newbies to be lost.
[20:17] <+KeenanDunham> See we have no stats making character creation only five minutes
[20:17] <+DLB_Chuck> You could say pick one skill that’s your best (2), one that’s your middle (3), and one that you’re worst at (4). Roll 1d6, if it’s higher than that number, you succeed
[20:17] <+KeenanDunham> You are right
[20:18] <+KeenanDunham> Yes there are ways to make a simple skill check
[20:18] <+KeenanDunham> I’m going to work on that
[20:18] <~Dan> See, here’s the problem that I fear you’re going to run into…
[20:18] <+DLB_Chuck> Check out (Link: http://www.d6xd6.com)www.d6xd6.com — you can see the whole ruleset there for free. no rolling of skills etc.
[20:18] <+KeenanDunham> Cool I will thank you
[20:19] <~Dan> If you leave everything other than combat up to GM fiat…
[20:19] <~Dan> …people will wonder what it is they’re paying for.
[20:19] <+WCRobert> I am all about pick up & play, party style RPG games. It is what I do. I think there needs to be more of them out there to draw folks into the hobby. But, yes. What Dan said. Plus, the GM will need to be experienced and able to read your designer’s mind.
[20:20] <+DLB_Chuck> Speaking of which, you are charging as much for a 20 page book with what looks like little layout as people can buy a 100-200 page book with professional layout and art and a lot more “words”.
[20:20] <+KeenanDunham> There are other aspects in gameplay, and tons of monsters and places
[20:20] <+KeenanDunham> It is only $14 for book one
[20:20] <+KeenanDunham> It has a lower price point
[20:21] <+DLB_Chuck> $10 for the PDF, right?
[20:21] <+KeenanDunham> Yes
[20:21] <+DLB_Chuck> Look around drivethrurpg.com
[20:21] <+KeenanDunham> In a gamestore there’s nothing like that
[20:22] <+KeenanDunham> Talking about printing vs online, I’m not a publisher though
[20:22] <+KeenanDunham> I have no idea about that side of it
[20:22] <+DLB_Chuck> I think the cost is too high personally. If I were going to go extra simple, I’d probably look at making it 5.5×8.5″ pages or even 6×9″. You can get away with less formatting that way and it has a less formal feel.
[20:23] <+KeenanDunham> This is a learning experience for me, so your advice is well taken
[20:23] <~Dan> That’s good. I hope you don’t feel like we’re beating up on you and your game, KeenanDunham.
[20:24] <+KeenanDunham> Just from what I know if I sell it in a store the store keeps half the MSRP if I want it to be attractive to them
[20:24] <+DLB_Chuck> You have to consider what you are asking people to pay and what they get compared to what others are asking for what they provide. You could always work with somebody like drivethrurpg and use print-on-demand. All you do is provide a PDF with the right specs and then it get’s “published” one copy at a time
[20:24] <+KeenanDunham> So I get $7 to print a color book and make a profit
[20:24] <+KeenanDunham> It’s a small margin
[20:24] <+KeenanDunham> Oh I will possibly put it on there
[20:24] <+DLB_Chuck> I’d worry less about stores right now. Stores need games with really high print runs (like 2000) to get the cost down
[20:24] <+KeenanDunham> I’ve been there and checked out RPGs
[20:25] <+WCRobert> Also, as far as printing physical copies. If you want the easy route, look at Drivethrurpg.com and price it out. I just ran your specs through another print on demand company (createspace) using full color pages and it comes out to $3.65 a book. People will be happier with a perfect bound, professional printed (even POD) book than something you print and staple on your own.
[20:25] <+KeenanDunham> My cost is higher
[20:25] <+KeenanDunham> I’m printing a small number myself
[20:25] <+DLB_Chuck> Excellentpoint WCRobert
[20:25] <+KeenanDunham> Not myself but at a copy/print place
[20:25] <+DLB_Chuck> Through createspace or ingram spark you can print just one copy if you want
[20:26] <+KeenanDunham> Let me write those down thank you
[20:26] <+DLB_Chuck> They won’t be on photopaper but the cover will be close
[20:26] <+KeenanDunham> Cool
[20:27] <+KeenanDunham> The paper we use is a good gloss every page
[20:27] <+WCRobert> For your first time, I highly recommend Createspace.com – I believe, ingram still charges a setup fee and the learning curve is steep. Createspace you can update files to your heart’s content.
[20:27] <+KeenanDunham> the artwork is well represented
[20:27] <+KeenanDunham> ok thank you awesome
[20:27] <+DLB_Chuck> Createspace is better for newbies
[20:27] <+KeenanDunham> I can still change where I’m printing
[20:27] <+DLB_Chuck> It gets your book on Amazon too
[20:27] <+KeenanDunham> Ok nice
[20:27] <+KeenanDunham> that’s very good
[20:28] <+KeenanDunham> This has been a year of creating this RPG from scratch and getting commissioned art pieces, I love this creative process, and want to learn everything I can
[20:28] <~Dan> See, this is why you should hang out here regularly, KeenanDunham. 🙂
[20:29] <+KeenanDunham> Yes for sure!
[20:30] <+WCRobert> So the positives: You have set a very reasonable and achievable KS goal. You should have no problem getting there. I like that you have your target audience in mind and are trying something different, you just have to tailor it to that audience.
[20:30] <~Dan> Can you say a bit more about how the settings tie together?
[20:30] <+KeenanDunham> Some of the finished artworks are on the kickstarter in the updates section if you want to take a look
[20:30] <+KeenanDunham> Yes
[20:30] <+DLB_Chuck> My Don’t Look Back rpg is clocking in right now at close to 80K words. Printed it’ll be about probably 160-200 pages. Professional art and layout. The PDF sells for $12 and the paperback sells for $35 in the kickstarter. It’s full-color throughout. Check the per-page cost compared to yours. It’s 8.5×11″ too.
[20:30] <+KeenanDunham> there is an overarching storyline
[20:31] <+KeenanDunham> Nice
[20:31] <+KeenanDunham> So Satan is arriving on Earth with portal trying to destroy everything
[20:31] <+DLB_Chuck> I probably undercharged for it but not that much. Retail will probably go to $20 for the PDF and $40 for the paperback version.
[20:31] <+KeenanDunham> But players can destroy those portals and create their own eventually
[20:33] <+KeenanDunham> And in Book Two as the story goes on you learn that Satan has discovered that on every world and dimension there is some kind of avatar of God that if destroyed, destroys that world, be it a tree, a butterfly, an object
[20:33] <+KeenanDunham> So you are world hopping through portals trying to stop his progress
[20:33] <+KeenanDunham> And portals become a target for control, to either open or destroy
[20:34] <~Dan> That’s a promising premise.
[20:34] <+DLB_Chuck> how many worlds have you defined so far?
[20:34] <+KeenanDunham> Our campaign we recorded on twitch we are looking for a portal on earth to destroy, and I’ve playtested that.
[20:34] <+KeenanDunham> Well there’s one base setting for each book, But up to about 5 other worlds suggested
[20:35] <+DLB_Chuck> cool
[20:35] <+KeenanDunham> In book one you’ll see Egypt Prime, Fae-land, Norse Ice Giants home, Hell, Heaven
[20:35] <+KeenanDunham> And more with each book
[20:35] <+KeenanDunham> along with factions that could be on any side of the fight
[20:36] <~Dan> How many creatures are you able to stat up, given the limited page count?
[20:36] <+KeenanDunham> There aren’t stats premade, it is left to the GM
[20:37] <+DLB_Chuck> Can you give us an example description for one of the creatures you can encounter?
[20:37] <+KeenanDunham> The way is it in book one they’ll have to determine health and moves for the enemies
[20:37] <+KeenanDunham> But there are spelled out examples of combat
[20:38] <+DLB_Chuck> If the idea is to make it simple and easy, I’d provide whatever the GM needs for the encounters or you’ll slow them down trying to figure that out on the fly and risk balance issues
[20:39] <+KeenanDunham> Sure, the protectors of Satan’s portals are giant demons with bat wings, and melee weapons, that actually are tied to the portals. If they die the portal closes
[20:39] <+KeenanDunham> There are three of them sustaining the portal, and there are magic rune brands into their flesh that create the spell.
[20:39] <+KeenanDunham> They have to all three be killed to close a portal
[20:40] <+KeenanDunham> You may be right, I may make very specific guidelines in the other books
[20:40] <+KeenanDunham> it is a good idea
[20:41] <+KeenanDunham> Those would not be hard to make
[20:42] <+DLB_Chuck> Whatever you do in the first book sets the stage for everything after that. If you want to provide stats, I’d do it from the very beginning.
[20:42] <+KeenanDunham> That’s a good idea
[20:42] <+KeenanDunham> I could add one page that covers that in the next month
[20:42] * ~Dan nods
[20:43] <+KeenanDunham> Your feedback is very helpful, and I appreciate your candidness
[20:43] <+KeenanDunham> I want to hear what people think about it
[20:44] <+DLB_Chuck> there’s more to this than most people realize but you gotta start somewhere
[20:44] <+KeenanDunham> Right haha
[20:44] <~Dan> What you need to do is provide a means for people to game easily. This does not mean letting people make stuff up for themselves. They don’t need a game for that.
[20:45] <+KeenanDunham> True
[20:45] <+DLB_Chuck> I’m out for the night but seriously, look at some other examples of lite and freeform games to get an idea of what they look like and how much info they provide then do your own take on it. the world sounds interesting
[20:45] <~Dan> What you need is a simple, robust mechanic that people can build on.
[20:45] <+KeenanDunham> Thank you for coming by
[20:45] <+KeenanDunham> Yes
[20:45] <+DLB_Chuck> Good luck
[20:45] <~Dan> Take care, DLB_Chuck!
[20:45] <+KeenanDunham> that’s what I’m trying to do
[20:46] <+DLB_Chuck> You too Dan
[20:46] <+KeenanDunham> I am going to work on a monster creation page for book one, that would really help
[20:47] <~Dan> Indeed.
[20:47] <+KeenanDunham> Still have time before printing
[20:47] <+KeenanDunham> And book two I will think about skill checks in a simple form and check out d5xd6.com
[20:47] <+KeenanDunham> there’s one other thing I wanted to show you
[20:48] <~Dan> Think in terms of kits. You are selling people a simple roleplaying kit.
[20:48] <+KeenanDunham> my newest update I hinted at some other additions to later books
[20:49] <+KeenanDunham> you can already play as multiple characters in this game and if you have 2 players the GM can play a character alongside the players
[20:49] <+KeenanDunham> mind if I post this update here
[20:49] <+KeenanDunham> it’s like 4 paragraphs
[20:49] <~Dan> Sure, but you’ll want to break it up. There’s a character limit per post.
[20:49] <+KeenanDunham> ok
[20:49] <+KeenanDunham> sec
[20:49] <+KeenanDunham> Some game elements that will be added to later Books, still refining them: Summons: Want your character to summon some kind of creature or anything to fight by your party’s side? Make summoning one of your moves and create a creature that will fight beside you for 3 turns. In Necrotopia, creativity is rewarded, and your Game Maestro can help you determine a
[20:50] <+KeenanDunham> Pets: Similar to summons why not start your game with a trusty pet that will fight with you in battle. Just as you can create and play more than one character in Necrotopia, why not create a low power pet that will level up with you as you level?
[20:50] <+KeenanDunham> Random Story Generator: We have developed a system for Book Two that will allow the Game Maestro to randomly create a storyline with multiple branches based on the many Bosses and Places available. The Game Maestro can create any number of their own original bosses and places to add to your game.
[20:50] <+KeenanDunham> Optional Zombie Viruses: We have play tested two different Zombie mechanisms that determine how Zombies and their virus works in the game. We will be featuring one new optional zombie virus system in each of the future books of Necrotopia. The Game Maestro can then implement any of these into your games! Super fun and opens many ways to create an original cam
[20:50] <+KeenanDunham> The Random Story Generator and Optional Zombie Viruses are going to be cool and so much fun
[20:51] <~Dan> Cool. 🙂
[20:52] <+KeenanDunham> thanks
[20:53] <+KeenanDunham> Want to close up the Q and A
[20:53] <+KeenanDunham> thanks so much that was really helpful to me
[20:53] <~Dan> Sure, we can.
[20:54] <+KeenanDunham> cool Dan, I’ll be in touch, thanks so much
[20:54] <~Dan> Usual reminder: Gratuities are welcome at (Link: https://gmshoe.wordpress.com/the-gmshoes-tip-jar/)https://gmshoe.wordpress.com/the-gmshoes-tip-jar/
[20:54] <+KeenanDunham> cool
[20:54] <~Dan> Now if you’ll give me just a moment, I’ll get the log posted and linik you!