[19:03] <+Terra-49> Alright! well my name is John, and I’m one of the 4 developers working on Terra-49.
[19:04] <+Terra-49> It’s a table top RPG set in a distant dystopian galaxy, and revolves mostly around the planet of Terra-49.
[19:06] <+Terra-49> Until earlier today, we had a kickstarter project up for the game, trying to get funding for publishing full sized 8.5 x 11 hard cover copies of the book.
[19:06] <+Terra-49> However we received a lot of constructive criticism about our goals being set to high, and trying to hard to compare ourselves to D&D and how we were different from it.
[19:07] <+Terra-49> So we’ve decided to take the project down for the time being, and re-launch July 1st with a lower more reasonable goal and more of a focus on the story, and how the game plays than how its different.
[19:08] <&Silverlion> (Very wise)
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[19:09] <+Terra-49> Anyway. we are hoping this will encourage people to be more willing to try the game. In fact we are currently planning to even put up a PDF with a short tutorial walk through of the game.
[19:10] <+Geek2theRight> I’m at firehouse subs with my dad, getting dinner for the family. Woot!
[19:10] <&Silverlion> (Q&A Geek!)
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[19:10] <+Geek2theRight> (Oh, has the Q&A started? Sorry.)
[19:10] <~Dan> (S’okay. 🙂 )
[19:11] <&Doctor> Okay, so how does it differ from D&D?
[19:11] <+Terra-49> it wouldn’t have any of the classes, or special weapons we would want to put in the finished digital copy and physical book. But it would have more than enough information for players to create characters and get a feel for how the game plays.
[19:12] <~Dan> (As a reminder, just give us a (done) when you’re ready for questions. 🙂 )
[19:12] <+Terra-49> Well, part of our inspiration for creating Terra-49 was that we wanted to make a table top RPG that wasn’t as intimidating to get into.
[19:12] <&Silverlion> How is the whole galaxy Dystopian? And why 49 Terra’s?
[19:13] <+Terra-49> most of us had personal experiences of the initial plunge into table top games being stressful. 😛
[19:13] <+Geek2theRight> Will the walkthrough be like a guided thing that goes over the rules applicable to the presented situations?
[19:13] <~Dan> (Question pause, please.)
[19:14] <+Terra-49> So we did what we could to simplify a lot of the mechanics that people who never had played a table top RPG before could quickly pick up and understand.
[19:15] <+Terra-49> And we tried to cut down on the amount of ‘stuff’ people needed to play, to make starting to play cheaper. (only using D6, and combining GM manual, players manual, and monster manual into 1 book.
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[19:17] <~Dan> Did you see Silverlion’s question, Terra-49?
[19:18] <+Terra-49> As for why it’s dystopian, there is a massive system wide war that breaks out after Humans arrive. the Talch, who essentially rule over the system at the time, grant the humans the right to colonize the planet K’thuna (Humans call it Terra-49) and this upsets the planets native inhabitants (the Ogshu)
[19:18] <&Silverlion> Ah. Interesting, but isn’t galaxy wide a pretty huge scale?
[19:19] <+Terra-49> Terra-49 is certainly the hardest hit of the planets. but almost all of them sustain at least some extent of damage. If nothing else, from the economic drain on the systems resources.
[19:20] <+Terra-49> There is a lot of pre-existic strife between several of the races already, so the War really brings a lot of old grudges to the surface and it becomes a bit of a free for all.
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[19:21] <+Terra-49> I don’t want to go into a lot of detail without our official ‘historian’ 😛 but the war is also part of what forms a lot of the games factions. Many of which only make things worse.
[19:24] <~Dan> What is the tech level of the setting?
[19:24] <+Terra-49> as for Geek2theright’s question, the tutorial will be a simple 3-4 room dungeon crawl essentially. You’ll start out with your group in a prison cell, and the guide will instruct you as you go on how to take your turn, move, use your skills to escape, interact with characters, things the GM should handle, how to use weapons, how combat works. ect.
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[19:26] <+Terra-49> for the experienced table top RPG player it will probably be more explanation than they need. But it’s ultimately designed to be a way for people who pick up the PDF or book later on who have never played ANY table top RPG to sit down and figure it out by playing instead of needing to study beforehand.
[19:27] <+Terra-49> Something I wish I had had when I started in D&D honestly. 😛
[19:29] <+Terra-49> As for tech setting, we’ve tried to mix future with modern to give it more of a brutal and desperate feel. Less light sabers and plasma rifles, more chainsaws and shotguns.
[19:29] <+Terra-49> But you’ll still have things like space ships, holograms, ect.
[19:30] <+Terra-49> I typically describe it as being something more akin to like you would see in firefly. or perhaps firefly mixed with mad max. 😛 lol
[19:30] <~Dan> What’s the in-setting reason for the lower tech level?
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[19:30] <+Terra-49> mostly that it’s cheaper to produce, and easier to come by.
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[19:31] <+Terra-49> a $10,000 plasma rifle does you no good when your hopping from run down city to city trying to find ammo for it. ^_^
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[19:32] <+Terra-49> if anyone feels I haven’t fully answered their questions or want a more detailed explanation let me know. 😀
[19:33] <~Dan> Do you have a character sheet that we can see?
[19:33] <+Terra-49> sure do 😀
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[19:34] <+Terra-49> hmm guessing you cant drop files in here. :p give me a min.
[19:34] <~Dan> Yeah, you’d have to give us a link to a URL.
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[19:36] <~Dan> (Howdy, SirGene!)
[19:36] <+SirGene> Looks quite – this may be an ambush men!
[19:36] <+Terra-49> (Link: http://terra49.com/cs.html)http://terra49.com/cs.html
[19:36] <+Terra-49> that should work
[19:36] <+Terra-49> sorry, had to upload it. 😛
[19:37] <~Dan> No worries!
[19:37] <~Dan> Oh, Terra-49, meet SirGene, game author and recent Q&A guest himself. 🙂
[19:37] <+SirGene> Looks techie, I am late so Dan will make me clean up again. Is there a Kickstarter link?
[19:38] <~Dan> (Link: https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/1424769463/terra-49)https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/1424769463/terra-49
[19:38] <+Terra-49> Hi SirGene. 🙂
[19:38] <~Dan> There’s the one they canceled. They’ll be restarting in July.
[19:38] <+SirGene> Hi Terra Sorry to be late.
[19:38] <+SirGene> Any other link?
[19:38] <~Dan> (Link: http://www.terra-49.com/index.html)http://www.terra-49.com/index.html
[19:39] <~Dan> Terra-49: Can you describe the game system?
[19:40] <+Terra-49> Well at its very core, a lot of the game functions like you would expect. Players talk their way through scenarios and roll dice to determine the outcomes when necessary.
[19:40] <+Terra-49> But we’ve tried to reduce the rolling to only stuff that we think players care about or find it fun to roll for.
[19:41] <+Terra-49> and we only use D6
[19:41] <+SirGene> Sounds smart. Keep it about story.
[19:41] <~Dan> Can you give me an example of task resolution?
[19:42] <+SirGene> Oh My first time around on KS failed, but I learned a lot, scaled back, found better options and got it done the 2nd time.
[19:42] <+Terra-49> So usually, you’ll be rolling because your using a skill, or a weapon. Players have a score in every skill and weapon, and roll D6 equal to that score. Any dice that land on a 1 or 6 are counted as Hits, anything else is called a miss.
[19:43] <+Terra-49> so most things will have a skill check of something like say… 2. so you would need to roll 2 dice that land on a 1 and/or 6.
[19:44] <+Terra-49> skills cap at 10, so your never rolling something crazy like 20 dice. But it’s fun to level a skill to max and unleash 10 D6. 😀
[19:44] <~Dan> How do attributes relate to skills? Or are you calling things like “Agility” skills?
[19:45] <+Terra-49> things like Agility would be skills.
[19:45] <+Terra-49> We wanted to avoid having what felt like main stats and secondary stats.
[19:45] <~Dan> I see… So the PCs must be really broadly competent, then.
[19:46] <+Terra-49> It can depend.
[19:46] <~Dan> Hmm… Why is Pilot a Social skill?
[19:46] <+Terra-49> if your fighting something like an alien beast, it probably wont need a negotiation or pilot skill. 😛
[19:47] <+Terra-49> But if your fighting another humanoid, it might need those.
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[19:48] <+Terra-49> It’s rare that skill category matter. However we tried to keep them even, and have considered swapping survival with pilot.
[19:48] <~Dan> (Howdy, Skullz!)
[19:48] <~Dan> Why the skill categories at all?
[19:49] <&Silverlion> Neither one of those seem to be Social skills to me 😀 Unless its Survival: Portside Bar
[19:50] <+Terra-49> It hasn’t come up in play testing recently, but I believe there are 1 or 2 class moments that lower an opponents “Body” skills or “Mind” skills.
[19:51] <+Skullz> (Heya!)
[19:52] <~Dan> I see… Hmm. Well, I can understand your desire to keep them even, but I have to agree with Silverlion: Putting Pilot or Survival under Social doesn’t sound right to me.
[19:52] <+Terra-49> Survival is used sort of as a combination of nature/environmental knowledge, perception, and in situations where Endurance doesn’t quite feel right to the GM. 😛
[19:52] <~Dan> “Hey, that dude’s really suave. I’ll bet he’s a great pilot!” 😉
[19:54] <&Silverlion> It is alright to let go of symmetry if symmetry is a problem.
[19:54] <+Terra-49> lol I think it’s more along the lines of Piloting skills being something that people find valuable and are only ‘useful’ within society. It wont do you much good if your just out in the wild with nothing to operate.
[19:54] * &Silverlion struggles with that himself
[19:54] <+SirGene> How is “Pilot” used in the game. Perhaps some unique approach that makes is social?
[19:54] <+Terra-49> but it’s something I’ll be sure to bring up at our next meeting.
[19:55] <~Dan> What are weapon skills based upon?
[19:56] <+Terra-49> Pilot is used to determine if you are able to operate a vehicle, it can be used to attempt to avoid fire if your in a vehicle, and it plays a role in certain on board weapons for vehicles.
[19:57] <+SirGene> Is there a cultural relevance to vehicles. For example vehicles from different races and you have understand that culture to operate it?
[19:59] <+Terra-49> different races certainly have different styles of vehicles, but I don’t think we’ve discussed making any of them easier or harder to operate based on race.
[20:00] <+Terra-49> If I’m being perfectly honest, vehicles and armor are actually the two last systems we are working on, and smoothing out the details of.
[20:00] <+SirGene> I am just looking for a reason that it might be a Social Skill. Of course it could be Piloting your way through a single bar! 🙂
[20:00] * ~Dan chuckles
[20:00] <+Terra-49> lol I mean… if you can convince the GM. 😛
[20:00] <~Dan> “There’s a babe on your 6!”
[20:01] <+SirGene> I sorry if it sounded like I was picking on you. I like the look of your game. I do think this is a quirk. Well Dan it depends on how long the Dungeon Master has been in the bar!
[20:01] <~Dan> 😀
[20:01] <~Dan> Oh, did you see my weapon skill question, Terra-49?
[20:02] <+Terra-49> Not a problem SirGene. 😀 part of the reason we decided to relaunch the game was due to constructive feedback, and It’s good for us to hear what people are thinking and try to address it one way or another. 🙂
[20:03] <+Terra-49> And I did Dan. 🙂 just getting back to that now… I got distracted thinking about using negotiation on that girl in the bar, and wondering if we made a mistake in scrapping our “confidence” skill. 😛
[20:04] <+SirGene> Well I say stick to your guns and make the rules fit the mistake. They need to understand alien culture to pilot something.
[20:04] <+Terra-49> nice workaround. 😉
[20:05] <+Terra-49> Anyway. weapon skills are very similar to regular skills, except that we don’t bother to list all of them, because players will almost never need all of them.
[20:05] <+Terra-49> players will start with ether 1 or 2 weapon skills of their choice, based on their starting weapons.
[20:05] <+SirGene> Is there a proficeincy or can they use any weapon?
[20:06] <+SirGene> OK I was ahead of you.
[20:06] <+Terra-49> Starting weapons are a machete (1h melee) sledgehammer (2h melee) rifle (ranged) shotgun (short ranged) and pistol (mid ranged)
[20:07] <+Terra-49> a lot of weapons will list there type as “1h melee” hatchet.. lead pipe… you know.. whatever you can pick up and hit people with.. or “rifle” such as a sniper rifle.
[20:08] <+Terra-49> all those go off the same skill, so you can drop one and pick up another and use it just as well.
[20:08] <~Dan> I was wondering if you literally meant that it’s either a machete or a sledgehammer for melee combat. 🙂
[20:08] <+Terra-49> but if you have a skill of 6 in rifles and pick up a shotgun for the first time… you can fire it.. but it probably wont go well. 😛
[20:09] <+Terra-49> lol for starting weapons that what we list them as. But it’s an RPG so we expect people to come up with whatever they want and simply follow the damage rules for that type.
[20:10] <+Terra-49> we had one guy in play testing who used a car door for a 2h weapon. ^_^
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[20:11] <~Dan> A door is a good weapon for “close” combat.
[20:11] <+Terra-49> any other questions about weapons?
[20:11] <~Dan> How does damage work?
[20:11] <+SirGene> What would be the difference between a machete or a sledgehammer if the name is just kind of for a weapon in general?
[20:11] <+Skullz> My question, exactly. And also, are there TYPES of damage?
[20:11] <+SirGene> Slashing vs Pounding?
[20:13] <+Terra-49> well for weapons listing we have the machete as a 1 handed and the sledgehammer as a 2 handed because when in testing we simply listed melee weapons as 1h or 2h. new players would consistently ask “whats a 1 handed weapon”
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[20:14] <+SirGene> OK I understand that, are there shields if using a one handed weapon?
[20:14] <+Terra-49> so we found that giving people a specific item really helped out the new players, at least until there second session when they would ask if they could say there machete was a hatchet. 😛
[20:15] <+Terra-49> as for slashing vs pounding, no. We wanted to limit damage ‘types’ as much as possible as we found it was extra information that no one really cared that much about and seemed to complicate things.
[20:15] <+SirGene> This makes some sense. Not sure I would differentiate, but it is your game and I think acceptable approach.
[20:15] <~Dan> (brb)
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[20:16] <+SirGene> maybe he had a bad taco?
[20:16] <+Catseye> those are no fun. Bad mexican food causes rear end explosions.
[20:17] <+Terra-49> We DO have a very limited number of affects, such as burn & bleed. But we try to keep there application to a minimum, and they really just work as damage over time.
[20:17] <+SirGene> and it sounds like brb
[20:18] <+Terra-49> So if someone hit you with a flame thrower and applied “Burn 2” you would take 2 damage every time your turn ends until it’s put out.
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[20:19] <+SirGene> Bleed would not be an ongoing damage would it?
[20:20] <+Terra-49> as for shields… I cant say we would never put a shield anywhere in the game. But currently we haven’t as we feel it usually wouldn’t feel right in the universe.
[20:20] <+Terra-49> (about bleed) *Nod* it would indeed.
[20:21] <+SirGene> No I understand. I was just thinking the difference be one and two handed weapons. Although some futuristic police type shield?
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[20:21] <+Terra-49> It just requires a different check or a med pack to stop it.
[20:21] <+SirGene> So bleeding continues until stopped.
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[20:23] <+Terra-49> it continues until someone uses a med kit on you, or you make enough endurance checks to end it. (you can roll once a turn and reduce your bleed # by your hits)
[20:23] <~Dan> You know, I think I’d come up with rules for shields if I were you. If part of your premise is that melee combat is a common option, then someone’s going to want to use a shield.
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[20:23] <~Dan> (Howdy, MonkofLords!)
[20:23] <+SirGene> Or parrying an attack with a melee weapon.
[20:24] <+Terra-49> If we added a shield, I can be almost certain we would treat it in the same way we do armor. 🙂
[20:24] <+Catseye> It sounds like an interesting setting.
[20:24] <~Dan> How do you treat armor, by the way?
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[20:26] <+Terra-49> because character HP never increase in our game, Armor is pretty much the only way to increase the amount of damage you can take.
[20:26] <+SirGene> catseye, it sounds fun. Although I think we have him rethinking a few things.
[20:26] <+SirGene> I like that.
[20:26] <+Terra-49> All armor has a Threshold, and a Rating. the rating lets you know how much it reduces damage by, and the Threshold is how much HP it has before it breaks.
[20:27] <+SirGene> Can you increase agility to better avoid damage?
[20:27] <+Terra-49> the only time you can use Agility to attempt to avoid damage is when the attacker is within melee range.
[20:28] <+SirGene> Does agility increase?
[20:28] <+Terra-49> So if they are attacking you with a melee weapon, or they have there gun directly in your face.
[20:28] <+Catseye> SirGene: Yeah. But it also gives me some pause. The game system behind it doesn’t sound like anything really new. Or anything that really stands out as special.
[20:29] <+SirGene> Well I have been out of it so long I am ignorant of that. But it does sound like a fun evening.
[20:29] <+Terra-49> You can increase any skill you want over time using XP. Naturally higher skill levels cost more XP to gain a level in.
[20:30] <+Terra-49> Increasing your skills is pretty much the only way in which you ‘level up’ in Terra-49.
[20:31] <+SirGene> Catseye, what I notice in games, like this and Hellywood is a Grouping of abilities into broad categories. I take it this is nothing new? Does it have a purpose beyond organization?
[20:31] <~Dan> How many different species are available to play?
[20:32] <+Catseye> The thing I think a new RPG needs most out of the gate is: It’s own voice. It’s own expression. And definitely its ability to grab and hold an audience. And get them to say: “I want to play this!”
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[20:33] <+Terra-49> there are currently 8 sentient species within the system you can encounter, and 5 of them are playable.
[20:33] <+SirGene> And yet my experience is you present something a little different and everyone says, but you don’t have . . . . or you are not like . . . .
[20:34] <+SirGene> But like I said I am returning to the hobby after some time away. I am learning things. What is old to you is new to me.
[20:34] <~Dan> Can you describe the PC species?
[20:35] <+Catseye> For me, it’s more of an artistic expression thing. A game system should support the flavor, the unique aspects of fictional material being presented.
[20:36] <+SirGene> Cat I agree.
[20:37] <+Terra-49> Catseye – I wont argue that Terra-49 is something revolutionary or incredibly different from bits and pieces of various games already out there. When we first launched our project, we tried to show examples of how it was different from mainstream D&D and got criticized pretty harshly for it. Possibly even rightfully so.
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[20:38] <+SirGene> Ideally that is so. But it seems to me everyone is using some other base system (for the most part). I am not that familiar with them all. They tweak something else and build a back story around it. I guess the issue is does the tweaking fit the backstory well.
[20:38] <~Dan> Well, in my experience, comparing your game to D&D makes it seem (rightly or wrongly) that the author has limited experience with the game industry as a whole.
[20:38] <+Terra-49> But we never designed Terra-49 to be a mold breaking Tabletop RPG. We wanted it to be something fun to play, that was much easier to learn than what most people have been exposed to (D&D, pathfinder, ect.) but that experienced players who already play D&D and other more indi table top RPG’s could enjoy. 😀
[20:38] <~Dan> Oh, sure, nothing wrong with that.
[20:39] <+Catseye> Even my own fiction is “inspired by” and dirivative of its sources. But for me it is all in presenting the author’s unique voice at the forefront. If you get the gamers following the author’s voice. A lot of heavy lifting is done for you in the process.
[20:40] <+SirGene> On TV we have tons of police procedural shows. All have a twist, but all have the same basic cop element. They keep getting churned out because people like them. It comes down to how well the player can immerse themselves in the story. Does the system support the story and the flow of the story?
[20:41] <+Terra-49> Which is why when we re-launch we are attempting to put more of a focus on how OUR game works, and the story behind it. 🙂 We know people will still find similarities between our game and others, but we are hoping that ours is a unique blend that people will enjoy, and be backed by a story that people want to engage in. 🙂
[20:41] <+Catseye> It’s definitely about setting immersion.
[20:42] <&Doctor> Speaking of… Art…
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[20:43] <+Terra-49> Another thing we received some early criticism over. :p
[20:43] <+Terra-49> Unfortunately none of us are exceptional artists, and most of what we have thus far is simply concept material.
[20:44] <+Catseye> Bear in mind. I am not trying to put you or your material down. I think it’s got promise.
[20:44] <&Silverlion> Good art is costly..
[20:44] <&Doctor> It’s not like “BOOO you’re terrible”… it’s just that art is a HUGE impression-maker. I’d recommend commissioning at least one really solid piece …
[20:44] <+Terra-49> We had hoped that with the kickstarter people would get a glimpse of the races, like them, and we would be able to use the money to help fund better material.
[20:44] <&Doctor> Yes, but it’s also has a massive, massive effect on how your project is percieved
[20:45] <+SirGene> I had the art in place for mine. But I was considering the opposite approach. Find someone good, but starting out and get them cheap, but heap credit on them to help them build their brand.
[20:45] <+Terra-49> But yes, in hindsight that’s another thing we took away from our initial run. 🙂 and I’ve already begun reaching out to artists to commission 1 or 2 solid pieces.
[20:46] <+Catseye> But I am more on the side of the people here that say it needs more development in areas. Art, game system, overall presentation.
[20:46] <&Doctor> Also, I’m going to be horrifically cynical for a moment. The world is full of artists who want exposure more than they want cash.
[20:46] <+SirGene> Have you tried Fivver
[20:46] <&Doctor> Like the rabbit?
[20:46] <&Silverlion> Doctor: I’ve not found that at all.
[20:47] <&Silverlion> They almost all want money..
[20:47] <+SirGene> I want to have good general discussion on game design and such, but I feel I have taken away from Terra here.
[20:47] <&Doctor> Silverlion: I didn’t say they work free, but there are a lot of people who want an industry “in” and will work with you on pricing
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[20:48] <+SirGene> You can also get people overseas who will work cheap via internet.
[20:49] <+Catseye> I think the art business. Especially that touched by the comics industry has been tainted by the rush for dollar signs. Leading to people over-valuing their work.
[20:49] <&Doctor> Like anyone who freelances, exposure, portfolio, and references have value to an artist. I don’t recommend treating anyone with disrespect or unfairly, but it’s more of a sense of “buy in” in that a successful project builds -everyone’s- credentials
[20:50] <+Terra-49> Well money has been tight on this project from the beginning, and we’ve been piecing together things we need for the game as we go. 🙂 We had hopes that a couple artists we knew would be able to supply us with a more consistent stream of art, but we are now looking to invest a little more an outsource.
[20:50] <&Doctor> Trust me, somewhere there is someone who is as excited to make art for an RPG as you are to design one.
[20:51] <+xyphoid> personally i don’t think it’s fair to get artists to work for exposure on a tiny startup rpg KS
[20:51] <&Doctor> note that I didn’t say free
[20:51] <+Terra-49> No doubt! 😀 but even on the Internet, locating such people (who are reliable) can be difficult. 🙂 as no doubt many of you already know. ^_^
[20:51] <&Doctor> Again, people deserve fair compensation. I am just saying that compensation is not -always- in the form of currency -alone-
[20:52] <+Terra-49> well ideally we would like to provide them with both.
[20:52] <&Doctor> But anyway, I think the art issue is a marketing issue for you guys and a lot of tiny startups
[20:53] <+Terra-49> But for now, as you said, we are a small RPG upstart. 🙂 So I personally would expect to compensate them more monetarily
[20:53] <&Doctor> How much to spend and on what, when the budget is minimal or super tight
[20:54] <~Dan> Terra-49: While you’re welcome to hang out with us and field questions as long as you like, in the time remaining, is there anything we haven’t covered that you’d like to bring up?
[20:55] <+Terra-49> hmm well I’m afraid I never got around to answering your question about the playable races. But I’m afraid I might not have time to go into detail about those in 5 min. ^_^
[20:55] <~Dan> No worries. 🙂
[20:56] <+Terra-49> are there any shorter questions or concerns people have that I could answer in the remaining time?
[20:57] <~Dan> Hmm… Do you cover space combat?
[20:57] <+Terra-49> We currently do not have plans to cover space combat in our initial publication.
[20:58] * ~Dan nods
[20:58] <+Terra-49> It’s something we really want to work on in future, but have decided to focus on the other mechanics for the time being. 🙂
[20:59] <~Dan> Understood. 🙂
[20:59] <~Dan> Thanks very much for joining us, Terra-49!
[20:59] <+Skullz> Woo!
[20:59] <+Terra-49> It looks like that’s about all the time I have. ^_^ Thank you very much for having me. 😀
[20:59] <+Skullz> Thanks Terra-49!
[21:00] <~Dan> As always, my tip jar is here if anyone is feeling generous. 🙂 (Link: https://gmshoe.wordpress.com/the-gmshoes-tip-jar/)https://gmshoe.wordpress.com/the-gmshoes-tip-jar/
[21:00] <~Dan> If you’ll give me just a moment, I’ll log the chat and get you the link!
The Hardboiled GMshoe's Office 